Im new to this community, but i want to 'use' your knowledge to study an improvement on the old classic DººM we all love (i hope).
As many of you know, ZDoom has been the most popular source port. There are some ports that are very popular now, like ZDaemon and Skulltag, where people play every day. Is more popular than many newer games, where there are more than 100 people playing at the weekends, with hundreds of servers online.
The thing is, i see that some ports try to push 3d rendering and models on doom, but, sincerely, the look like crap, and require 3d hardware and drivers, that, for many reasons, i dont like.
So, i want to see if it is possible to use voxels to render ONLY player things. Not replacing the rendering of the walls or floors. Only SPRITES. Replacing them with a voxel representation.
I'm a programmer (just a technician, not an engineer) with more knowledge at making 'enterprise' apps, like database mantainers and sometimes some web apps. So, my knowledge or graphics programming is really low.
But i really want to give DººM a new face by improving the only thing that really hasn't been improved all these years. THINGs rendering, specifically actors like players and maybe monsters.
I think that the solution is to implement a rendering function that, taking only as parameters the viewing angles, returns a sprite of the voxel representation of the actor. Not changing even the colission detection, or applying anything related to voxels to the rest of the engine.
The idea is to apply the 'patch' to the 1.23 version of zdoom code (in that way, making it available to the 3 main multiplayer doom ports)
I've been told that the voxels can't really have an animation system.... But i think that this might be done, even if it needs to split the voxel models in parts like arms, legs, etc etc....
Well... more that the idea and the desire to improve my beloved DººM, thats all i have by now.
Feedback, guys, is what i need now... because, sincerely, i dont know where to start.... But i think that the problem on how to design an skeletal animation system for voxels is the main issue.
As for ´requirements´, I think the engine should be able to:
Showing a smooth animation from any angle
Being able to show the current weapon on the player hands (considering also melee attacks and clean hands postures)
Be able to ´gib´ the player to pieces (not a priority)
Sorry if my english is not clear... My native language is Spanish. I try to do my best :)
Edited by shinobi.cl at
hansk at
Re: Voxels on DººM. Considerations
shinobi.cl said at
The thing is, i see that some ports try to push 3d rendering and models on doom, but, sincerely, the look like crap, and require 3d hardware and drivers, that, for many reasons, i dont like.
I think at least one person here is going to aggressively agree with that :)
shinobi.cl said at
I've been told that the voxels can't really have an animation system.... But i think that this might be done, even if it needs to split the voxel models in parts like arms, legs, etc etc....
This is what we did in Voxelstein 3D v0.1 (link on my signature). It doesn't look that great, but works. Then again Doom sprites used frames for animation, you could do that with voxels as well (takes a little more memory though).
Anyway, it shouldn't be too hard to plug in Kens KV6 sprite renderer. I don't know anything about Dooms rendering code though, so I may be wrong.
shinobi.cl at
Well... of course, it could be done with voxel frames....but that wouldn't do anything for animation fludity. I think it would not be worth the effort just for that... but, it can be a milestone, at least for reaching the point where a voxel representation can be rendered in place of a DººM sprite.
I think i'll take a look at voxelstein source and will see if i understand something... At least something i can use.
Thanks :D
More feedback is welcome, though 8)
Batmanifestdestiny at
Voxels on DººM. Considerations
This is the kind of thing I've been waiting for! Make the doom thing(minus the gibs) and I could turn it into a little project which I've been fantasizing about: Voxel Chex Quest.
ConsistentCallsign at
Re: Voxels on DººM. Considerations
Batmanifestdestiny said at
Make the doom thing(minus the gibs)
making an fps without blood n guts is like making chocolate(minus the cacao).
Edited by TheodoreRobertCowell at
Batmanifestdestiny at
TheodoreRobertCowell said at
Batmanifestdestiny said at
Make the doom thing(minus the gibs)
making an fps without blood n guts is like making chocolate(minus the cacao).
Not quite, try looking at the following: Time Splitters 1 + 2 007 Goldeneye Halo Chex Quest(of course) Wolfenstein 3D(the original had no gibs)
The thing is, i see that some ports try to push 3d rendering and models on doom, but, sincerely, the look like crap, and require 3d hardware and drivers, that, for many reasons, i dont like.
I think at least one person here is going to aggressively agree with that :)
shinobi.cl said at
I've been told that the voxels can't really have an animation system.... But i think that this might be done, even if it needs to split the voxel models in parts like arms, legs, etc etc....
This is what we did in Voxelstein 3D v0.1 (link on my signature). It doesn't look that great, but works. Then again Doom sprites used frames for animation, you could do that with voxels as well (takes a little more memory though).
Anyway, it shouldn't be too hard to plug in Kens KV6 sprite renderer. I don't know anything about Dooms rendering code though, so I may be wrong.
So, Doom sprites used frames for animation, what do other games like wolf3d, the build games, etc use then? I thought they all used frames for animating.
Jinroh at
Batmanifestdestiny said at
TheodoreRobertCowell said at
Batmanifestdestiny said at
Make the doom thing(minus the gibs)
making an fps without blood n guts is like making chocolate(minus the cacao).
Not quite, try looking at the following: Time Splitters 1 + 2 007 Goldeneye Halo Chex Quest(of course) Wolfenstein 3D(the original had no gibs)
The infamous Death Cam. idk if I would count those as gibs per se though since they aren't really affected by a strong blast or explosion. It's more just an impressive Death Sequence. IMO. DooM's were just technically an impressive death sequence but at least they were triggered by a strong blast or something so IMO those count.
Contributing to the list: Catacombs 3-D Trilogy http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6b/Cat_arma.png
I only did the shareware, which had no gibs, only blood.
and with this voxel idea: I would like some frame-by-frame allowability, for things like teleporters and stuff, that grow and disappear.
DooMAD at
Re: Voxels on DººM. Considerations
shinobi.cl said at
So, i want to see if it is possible to use voxels to render ONLY player things. Not replacing the rendering of the walls or floors. Only SPRITES. Replacing them with a voxel representation.
I'm finding it's hard enough just to make the voxel things required, let alone getting one of the source port developers to implement support for it. Small items like weapons, health and ammo pickups are bad enough, but the making voxel versions of the monsters would be a nightmare. The only easy way to do it would be to convert them from models people have made, but then the look of the models is what we're trying to avoid in the first place. The Doom Voxel Project has pretty much come grinding to a halt because no one wants to put the effort into making items when they'll probably never get used in a port.
ConsistentCallsign at
Yo yo Doomaaaaaad, my man! :P Doom Voxel project owns. It OWNS!! :o
DooMAD said at
I'm finding it's hard enough just to make the voxel things required
Voxel3D is hard to use as indicated by their promotional images: http://www.everygraph.com/product/voxel3d/pic/s_exportDat.png All their models are low-res because adding/removing voxels takes time. The program really tests your patience :P Also, LOL LEGO RENDER!! :D
Try using Slab6 instead and learn how to use the mirror key (=), the change color key (c) and familiarize yourself with the scroll lock key and also how to adjust pivots so you can mirror them.
There's also a second alternative called Paint3d
let alone getting one of the source port developers to implement support for it.
Voxel items do not impress them, the only thing that will make them interested, is to make 3D monster sprites :D but then one must also make a new "soft-tissue" volume deformation/animation system that will allow the animator to stretch, bend and twist the model instead of making separate frames/models for each animation, but I don't know how practical it will be to implement this new voxel animation method into zdoom/whatever.
but the making voxel versions of the monsters would be a nightmare.
I spent days slabbing this caco: http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd202/highwingx3/caco-4.png
The Doom Voxel Project has pretty much come grinding to a halt because no one wants to put the effort into making items when they'll probably never get used in a port.
There's always room for them in Voxelstein 3D lol
DooMAD at
TheodoreRobertCowell said at
Yo yo Doomaaaaaad, my man! :P Doom Voxel project owns. It OWNS!! :o
Glad you like it. :) I can't take all the credit though, I just host the project and made a few items.
Voxel3D is hard to use as indicated by their promotional images All their models are low-res because adding/removing voxels takes time. The program really tests your patience :P Try using Slab6 instead and learn how to use the mirror key (=), the change color key (c) and familiarize yourself with the scroll lock key and also how to adjust pivots so you can mirror them. There's also a second alternative called Paint3d
I quite like the Voxel3D interface, as it felt quite intuitive for a beginner such as my myself, but you're right about how time consuming it is. I tried having a go with Slab6, but just got completely lost trying to figure out how the hell to do anything, even after reading the readme several times over, heh. I'll certainly check out that Paint3D program if I ever find the motivation to start working on things again.
Voxel items do not impress them, the only thing that will make them interested, is to make 3D monster sprites :D but then one must also make a new "soft-tissue" volume deformation/animation system that will allow the animator to stretch, bend and twist the model instead of making separate frames/models for each animation, but I don't know how practical it will be to implement this new voxel animation method into zdoom/whatever.
I think their primary concerns were performance issues, as Doom is all about having a huge horde of monsters on the screen at once and a large number of voxel items/monsters might slow things down on older systems. There's also a general concensus amongst developers that voxels aren't really suitable for OpenGL rendered ports. I'm not knowledgeable enough about the subject to argue one way or another, so I took their word for it.
I spent days slabbing this caco
That's really nice work, far beyond anything I'd be capable of doing. The only reason I've been able to create the pickups I've done so far is because they're literally copied pixel for pixel (or voxel as the case may be). And even then, trying to work out how the items should look in 3D can be a bit confusing. My artistic talents are pretty limited, so even if I could figure out Slab6, I doubt I'd ever be able to achieve anything nearly as good as that.
There's always room for them in Voxelstein 3D lol
Feel free to use them, it would be good to know they have a home somewhere. :)
Edited by DooMAD at
ConsistentCallsign at
Jinroh said at
Contributing to the list: Blake Stone http://www.dosgamesdownload.com/3DShooting/Blake-Stone-Aliens-of-Gold/blake-stone-2.gif